Absence of evidence? Make it up!

Another nail in the authenticist coffin. The fourth and last lecture in a series of Zoom presentations hosted by the Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto and delivered by Dale Glover is called ‘Refuting the Skeptics.’1 The first three were an introduction to the Turin Shroud, how the images were made, and the Shroud and the historical Jesus, but as a skeptic myself, I was particularly interested in the last one. If there is evidence that refutes the non-authenticist argument, I’d like to know what it is.

But there isn’t. Rather to my surprise, most of Glover’s evidence is invented. Sometimes, it is clear that he is quoting someone else’s invention and in other cases it’s not, but whatever the sources, the refutations simply aren’t true. If one of the most widely read authenticists in the world, fighting on his own ground and choosing his own weapons, can’t come up with genuine arguments against those who think differently, then the authenticist cause is weak indeed.

Let’s look at the lecture. As it starts, Glover chooses three significant “skeptical arguments” to refute: the radiocarbon dating, Walter McCrone’s “pro-paint” findings, and historical & biblical inaccuracies; and each of these is divided into sub-headings and bullet points. Every single one is either completely untrue, or a distortion of the truth, or at best a misinterpretation or misrepresentation.

ARGUMENT ONE: THE RADIOCARBON DATING
This is “refuted” under five main headings.

1). “The Unreliability of the AMS Carbon-14 Dating Method.” To support this claim, Glover refers to two inter-laboratory comparison tests and an article on the history of radiocarbon dating by an eminent metrologist of the National Institute of Standards and Technology. These are all so badly distorted as to demonstrate invention rather than quotation.

The inter-laboratory comparisons were both published in Radiocarbon, and are readily available, so it seems a pity that Glover should get his evidence about the first from an article in New Scientist magazine,2 which misattributes the sponsor of the experiment, misquotes the conclusions, and relies upon a clearly disgruntled scientist (whose lab did not fare well) for an opinion.

The comparison is the ‘Report on Stage 3 of the International Collaborative Program,’ by T.C. Aitchison et al, published in 1990.3 It deals with results from 38 laboratories, of which 5 were AMS, but, by agreement with the laboratories, the report does not identify them. However, from its data, it is easy to see that the AMS labs clearly came out best. Each lab was judged against “three basic criteria” and given a pass or fail for each one. The last sentence of the abstract says: “In total, 23 out of the 38 laboratories in this stage of the study, FAILED to meet these 3 basic criteria for an adequate performance in the production of 14C dates.” However, from data Table 3, we can see that three out of the five AMS labs (60%) did not fail any of the criteria. Two AMS labs failed the “systematic bias” criterion, but the other 21 failures came from the other 33 labs. The conclusion to the paper says: “In total, only 15 of the 38 laboratories meet all 3 of these adequacy requirements.” As we have seen, three of the five AMS labs did meet all three criteria (60%), compared to only 12 of the other 33 (36%). The superiority of the AMS method over the others was clearly demonstrated.

The second interlaboratory comparison mentioned, although it actually took place a few years earlier, is ‘An intercomparison of some AMS and Small Gas Counter Laboratories,’ by Richard Burleigh et al, published in 1986.4 Contrary to Glover’s statement that 5 AMS labs took part, there were in fact 4 AMS and 2 Small Gas Counters. 18 dates are reported (not 17 as Glover says), 5 from each of two Peruvian textiles and eight from an Egyptian textile. With the exception of two outliers, the results were 1380 AD ± 50, 1560 ± 70, and 2900 ± 300. The first set of results was inconsistent with the historically derived date of the sample (1200 AD), but consistent within itself, suggesting that the provenance of the sample was incorrect. The other results concurred with their historically understood dates. Glover’s statement, “All five labs got the ages wrong by half the known age or more in a total of 7/17 experiments” is an untrue, unjustified, and deliberately misleading interpretation of these results.

Next, Glover writes: “in 2004, the secular Journal of Research of the National Institute of Standards and Technology, thoroughly Investigated C-14 dating and its relation to the Shroud in particular.” He is actually referring to an article by Lloyd A. Currie called ‘The Remarkable Metrological History of Radiocarbon Dating [II],’5 which is a rapid overview of the subject, not a thorough investigation, discussing the Shroud where it appears in context, not “in particular.” The AMS method, and its application to the Shroud, are given the highest praise. “Apart from sampling, the AMS measurements were performed taking the strictest quality control measures. Three highly competent laboratories were selected: the University of Arizona, Oxford University, and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology [ETH] in Zürich. Samples of the Shroud, plus three control samples of known age, were distributed blind to the three laboratories. Control of this operation (distribution of samples, collection of results) was the responsibility of Michael Tite of the British Museum. The accuracy and precision of the interlaboratory data for the control samples were outstanding, leaving no doubt as to the quality of the AMS measurement technique.” Although he certainly does not suggest that the AMS method is unreliable, Currie acknowledges that there has been controversy surrounding the date, and suggests that contamination could be a contributory factor to the use of very small samples. He says, “a wave of questioning has followed – not of the AMS method, but of possible artifacts that could have affected the linen and invalidated the 14C result. [Two of three possible hypotheses are mentioned] The third proposal raises the question of non-contemporaneous organic matter – whether from incompletely removed carbon contamination from “oil, wax, tears, and smoke” that the cloth had been exposed to, or from bacterial attack and deposit over the ages. Apart from the effects of such factors on the Shroud, the issue of organic reactions and non-contemporaneous contamination of ancient materials can be a very serious and complex matter, deserving quantitative investigation of the possible impacts on measurement accuracy.” Compare this to Glover’s misquotation: “A wave of questioning has followed [omission: see below] of possible artefacts that could have affected the C-14 result, the question of non-contemporaneous organic matter (artificially adding to the C-14 content in that area or cloth as a whole) from oil, wax, tallow, tears, smoke or from bacterial attack and deposit over the ages – the effects of such can be a very serious and complex matter in relation to the Shroud and is deserving of new quantitative investigation of the possible impacts on measurement accuracy of the 1988 results.” The words “not of the AMS method” have been omitted, and the words underlined are made up, distorting and misrepresenting the tenor of the article.

2). “Breach of Proper Scientific Protocols.” This is a page of scurrilous, unfounded and egregious attacks on the integrity of those involved in the radiocarbon dating. Almost all of it is either untrue, gross distortion, or contemptible insinuation. Glover breaks this section of his alleged refutation into five bullet points:
Joe Marino has written a book “analysing all of the biased corruption behind the 1988 Carbon-14 dating.” Well, no. Marino has indeed written a book, based on numerous sources, some of which are biased and some of which allege corruption, but is not able to demonstrate that any of the people ultimately involved in the radiocarbon dating were corrupt or that their self-interest prevented a fair and reasonable result.
“The atheist leader of the C-14 dating, Harry Gove, conspired to eliminate STURP and prevented all but the C-14 in an effort to promote his new technology and hog all the publicity for himself.” This is exaggerated to the point of absurdity. Although Harry Gove had been a prime mover in the development of AMS dating, and does seem to have been personally antagonistic to some of the STuRP personnel, especially Robert Dinegar, he was not the “leader of the C-14 dating,” not responsible for any of the actions of the Holy See and its advisors, and not involved in any part of the sample selection or testing process. Although STuRP had indeed prepared a schedule of 26 new experiments to be performed on the Shroud, the overall rejection of their proposal was minimally related to the radiocarbon dating.
“The mutually agreed upon proper science protocols demanded that the C-14 test be a “blind test,” meaning none of the labs would know which sample was the Shroud vs. the controls, but the leader of the experiment revealed which samples were which to all the labs before any testing was done.” Not true, although this is the closest anyone gets to finding a flaw in the protocol agreed on by the participants in the process. Michael Tite realised that because of its very rare weave, finding controls that looked like the Shroud was impossible, so anyone who knew anything about it could recognise the Should sample from the controls quite easily. Even so, the samples were sealed in their steel canisters in secret, so that they could be kept as anonymous as possible, and two of the labs re-labelled the samples after they had been burnt to CO2, so that the engineers who operated the dating machine itself did not know which was which.
“These scientific protocols required that there be no communication between the labs, but all three labs secretly met in the summer before publicising their results.” This another gross distortion of the truth, deliberately designed to discredit the radiocarbon dating in the absence of any actual evidence that there was anything wrong with it. All three labs carried out their tests quite independently of each other and without communicating at all. They each sent their results to the British Museum for co-ordination. No results were deleted, and there is no evidence of any communication between the laboratories.
“Immediately after publicly declaring the Shroud to be a mediaeval fake, the Oxford lab suddenly received an anonymous, 1 million pound payment and Michael Tite, the leader of the dating, conveniently obtained a very lucrative and permanent job position as chair at Oxford.” Smells fishy, eh? Well, no, of course not. Edward Hall both founded and funded the Research Laboratory for Archaeology and the History of Art at Oxford in 1954, aged 30, and retired from it in 1989, aged 65. As he had never taken a salary (he was a man of independent means), there was a danger that the position, and the laboratory, would expire. The million pound donation was as a direct result of his own appeal and nothing to do with the Shroud. He having retired, it was natural that Michael Tite would take up the position, having been Keeper of the British Museum Research Laboratory for twenty-five years.

What is Glover’s argument? How does any of this “refute” the radiocarbon results, unless he thinks they were deliberately fraudulently misrepresented. His second point implicates the Holy See and its advisors, who were allegedly bamboozled by “atheist” Harry Gove not to let STuRP (closely associated with the Catholic Church) get involved. If Glover thinks there is a shred of truth in his allegation, he thinks that the Pope sponsored the finding and publication of a medieval date for the Shroud in spite of it being one of the most important relics of Christ’s incarnation in the world, rejecting the involvement of a group of researchers who would have found it authentic.

His next two points imply that Glover thinks the date of the Shroud was found to be ancient by one or more of the laboratories, who then conspired together to hide the fact. He thinks that the pages and pages of data from each laboratory kept by the British Museum were all entirely forged to support an overall medieval date, and that every one of the 21 authors of the published paper, all closely involved in one capacity or another, was suborned into hiding their knowledge of the truth.

Finally, point five suggests that Glover thinks there was a consortium of very rich men who paid Michael Tite – and through him, all the other scientists involved – into falsifying the date of the Shroud, and hiding its true provenance for the next forty years – and counting.

So which of these is it? Who is Glover tossing under the bus in refutation of the radiocarbon claim: Pope John-Paul II? Cardinal Ballestreros? Douglas Donahue? Edward Hall? Willi Wölfli? Michael Tite? Morven Lees? Come one, come all, in fact, because if one was guilty, all the others would have known about it.

The truth is, of course, that neither Glover nor anyone else thinks any of this. There’s no evidence to support fraud or conspiracy and anybody as well-versed as he knows that perfectly well. This whole page is a feeble attempt to throw enough mud in the air to sow doubt in some people’s minds, but, as anyone who supports the hypotheses of Joe Marino or Bob Rucker knows very well, all the serious objections to the radiocarbon dating depend on the genuineness of the sample and the accuracy of the measurements made of it. This is obvious from the next few refutations on the list…

3). “Only one Sample Location Dated.” Glover begins this section with a prophetic quotation from a letter written by Harry Gove, whose attempt to get his own laboratory to be one of those chosen to date the Shroud was unsuccessful, to the Pope. Gove predicted that whatever the result, it would cause controversy, and so it did. However, Glover’s account of what happened is completely untrue. The STuRP team did not “set it up that they would take three samples from different locations on the Shroud.” Nor is it true that “for some reason, it was switched at the last minute to just dating one sample location.” Nor is it true that Gove accepted the Holy See’s decision to date just one small area, and “went ahead with it anyways. Why? Because, I think, publicity was more important for this guy, and promoting his brand new carbon-14 method, through doing it on the Shroud, was more important.” Nonsense. Gove didn’t go “ahead with it anyways” because his lab wasn’t chosen to take part at all, and the method was not “brand new.”

4). “Non-Representative Sample #1: Invisible Reweave Evidence.” For this section to make any sense at all, we have to assume that the sample cut from the Shroud was not deliberately given a fraudulent date, but that the date quoted was an accurate representation of the radiocarbon present in the sample. In other words the whole of the previous section is irrelevant, and does nothing to refute the medieval date at all. The reason the radiocarbon suggested a medieval provenance, according to this hypothesis, is that there was an invisible blend of 16th century thread woven into the original 1st century textile, which had become thread-bare over the ages. Several pieces of evidence are given to justify this, all of which are wholly invalid – which Glover knows very well.
French Invisible Reweaving is an ancient method of repairing textiles and is undetectable. This is untrue. There is a widely circulated pamphlet illustrating exactly how to perform French Invisible Weaving, readily available on eBay. It contains detailed illustrations, clearly showing that so-called invisible mending is not, in close-up, invisible.
There is cotton in the radiocarbon sample area but nowhere else on the Shroud. This is untrue. There is cotton in varying amounts all over the Shroud, and in 1981, an anonymous researcher at the last STuRP conference reported that cotton was interwoven into a fragment of thread she had examined.
The radiocarbon area is contaminated. This is true but irrelevant, as there is insufficient contamination to affect the date, as Glover actually admits later on.
The ‘blue quad mosaic images’ distinguish areas of different chemicals by colour. This is untrue. Glover’s “helpful visual” is deliberately deceptive, and his commentary more so. By showing only one small part of the image, he can point to an area and say, “Here’s the rest of the Shroud cloth. It comes off in the blue quad mosaic image as orange or yellowish colour.” Glover knows very well that actually a third of the Shroud actually comes off as bright blue, but by deliberately hiding that part, he can pretend some kind of uniformity to the main part of the Shroud which is different from the radiocarbon corner. “Here’s the area of the carbon dating,” he goes on, outlining, with his cursor, an area which is not the carbon dating area at all. Then he confuses the colour separation technique of the mosaics with UV-fluorescence, and spectacularly ignores a bright pale blue triangle, which is exactly the same material as the area he identified as dark blue, but which according to his commentary, ought to be a completely different material.

5). “Non-Representative Sample #2: Statistic Problems and Systematic Bias.” We are now so far outside Glover’s home turf it is hardly surprising he flounders. If he has read any of the papers he quotes he misunderstands them and his summaries are incorrect and untrue. Tristan Casabianca did not “sue” the British Museum, nor did he “force the carbon-14 scientists to publish the raw data.” Most of them were dead anyway, and couldn’t be forced to do anything.
“What was revealed was that they had a total of 16 sub-samples.” That’s untrue.
“They reported only 12, so what they did is they eliminated… they fudged the data, there’s no way around it – they eliminated the most problematic outlier dates – the sub-sample dates – that didn’t fit with their medieval hypothesis. This was just fraudulent data.” This is completely untrue, as anybody looking at the results released by the British Museum can see.
“Based on all 16 sub-sample dates, they’ve done a statistical analysis, and they’ve discovered that there’s actually a gradient to the data that they got, of about 36 years per centimetre.” This is untrue. The alleged gradient is found by drawing a straight line through the three published dates from the three labs, which is unjustified.
“They calculated the line of best fit.” This is untrue. They calculated the straight line of best fit. The actual line of best fit is curved.
“This proves there’s a 98.6% probability that there’s some kind of systematic error, that stands behind these results.” No, it doesn’t. One interpretation of the ‘line of best fit’ might be a systematic error, but the line of best fit is, as we have seen, no such thing, and the precise positions of the points along the x-axis are little more than guesses anyway.
“[The] Oxford lab is re-considering the carbon dating of the Shroud.” No it isn’t.
“Dr Christopher Ramsay. He’s the head of the Oxford Radiocarbon Labs, and even he’s admitting now there is a problem with the carbon-dating of the Shroud.” No, he isn’t. Note that Dale implies that the comment he quotes from Dr Ramsay followed the publication of Tristan Casabianca’s paper, when in fact it was made for a BBC documentary nine years previously.6 It’s a very diplomatic quote, but it does not admit that there was anything wrong with the radiocarbon test. Ramsay says, “There does seem to be a conflict in the interpretation of the different evidence, and for that reason, I think that everyone who’s worked in this area – the radiocarbon scientists and all of the other experts – need to have a critical look at the evidence that may have come up, in order for us to try to work out some kind of a coherent story that fits, and tells us the truth of the history of this intriguing cloth.”

ARGUMENT TWO: WALTER MCCRONE’S ‘PRO-PAINT’ FINDINGS
Whether there is, or was at some time, sufficient paint on the Shroud to form the image, or to cause the degradation in the cloth that has resulted in the image, is a genuine topic of debate which is not resolved to this day. The amount, distribution and nature of iron compounds has been studied, somewhat incompletely, and there are definitely differences of interpretation. Although the medieval hypotheses is certainly not “refuted,” the science is subtle and worth investigating.

What a pity then, that Glover’s alleged refutation relies so utterly on denigrating the man rather than his findings. This is muck-spreading of a high order, so high, in fact, as to be transparently untrue, flinging all the accusations of dishonesty right back in the accuser’s own face.

Walter McCrone was famous but is now infamous. That’s not true, as anybody looking him up on the internet will discover. He is frequently called the ‘Father of Modern Microscopy,’ was the recipient of numerous awards, and his students and colleagues say nothing but good of him. To call him infamous is a personal, peculiarly authenticist characterisation.
Walter McCrone was a bigoted atheist who hated superstitious Christians. This is simply a lie. He wasn’t, and there’s no evidence that he was. Glover claims that this is his (Glover’s) assessment from reading his book, but I don’t believe him. He has invented this character out of whole cloth. There is nothing in McCrone’s book or the rest of his life to suggest anything of the sort, and his closest correspondents throughout his studies on the Shroud were Catholic priests. For many years he was on the board of directors of, and then President of the Ada S. McKinley Community Service in Chicago, who have named one of their training facilities after him. His humanity and generosity is widely admired across the microscopical and Chicago social world.
Walter McCrone was the Richard Dawkins of his day. This is utterly absurd. They have almost nothing in common.
Walter McCrone has been utterly discredited on his findings both of the Shroud and of the Vinland Map. This is not true. Of the Shroud, exactly the kind of publicity given to him by podcasts such as Glover’s has strengthened, rather than weakened his influence, and of course the Vinland Map (as Glover has finally realised and been generous enough to admit in his comments) has been conclusively determined a fake, and McCrone’s discovery of a modern pigment in it as long ago as 1973 has been entirely vindicated.
Walter McCrone was not an official member of STuRP (So what?) and did not study the Shroud in Turin in person. So what? Neither John Heller nor Alan Adler, McCrone’s chief chemical ‘opponents,’ even went to Turin in 1978.
Walter McCrone used outdated technology – the polarised light microscope. So what? Either it showed what McCrone identified or it didn’t. Here is a micrograph of a Shroud fibre from the calf of the dorsal image. Does it show orange-red particles or not?


STuRP published all of their results and scientific findings and conclusions in dozens upon dozens of secular scientific peer-reviewed journals.” This is untrue, as Glover knows very well. How many is “dozens upon dozens”?
Walter McCrone only published his findings in the journal of which he was the editor, which is “cheating.” Why? For the long term editor of a scientific journal not to publish his findings in it would suggest a lack of faith in his own publication. Also, the three essays ‘Light Microscopical Study of the Turin Shroud,’ I, II and III were successive ‘works in progress,’ published in 1980 and 1981. In 1990, after his research was concluded and the radiocarbon test had reinforced his microscopical and chemical findings, he published ‘The Shroud of Turin, Blood or Artist’s Pigment?’ in the Accounts of Chemical Research,7 as respectable a journal as any of the “dozens and dozens” Glover claims for the STuRP papers.
“I tried to look up, on the McCrone Institute website, just to show you these papers, but it seems like even the McCrone Institute is now embarrassed by McCrone’s findings and papers: they’ve totally removed it from the website. Here’s what I got.”

Well, good for Glover. What were his search terms, I wonder? Here’s what I got.8

It seems like the McCrone Institute is not embarrassed after all.

Having done his best to discredit McCrone as a person, Glover moves on to his scientific findings and, as before, immediately wades out of his depth.

• “Iron on the Shroud.” McCrone examined about 30 sticky tape slides taken from various parts of the Shroud, and observed small orange red particles on numerous fibres. He recognised them as an iron oxide pigment. He found that simply by looking at the density of these particles and fibres he could distinguish image from non-image, and decided that the image was at least in part due to iron oxide paint. John Heller and Alan Adler examined about 20 of the tapes, but do not seem to acknowledge that any of them had numerous adherent orange-red particles, let alone that they were differentially distributed. McCrone photographed some of his evidence, which was later corroborated by Eugene Nitowski and Joseph Kohlbeck, who took numerous photos of the sticky tapes, many of which show orange-red particles adhering to the fibres, although they did not quantify them, or differentiate image from non-image on that basis. Rather than actually look at the samples through a microscope, Heller & Adler extracted individual fibres using toluene and rinsed them thoroughly to wash off the glue of the sticky-tape. It is hardly surprising that they also washed off the ‘glue’ of any paint medium, and almost all the paint embedded in it. Rather than label any of these scientists liars, it is better to try to understand why they differed from each other on experimental grounds, and I think this explanation is as good as any.
“[STuRP] actually had dozens of spectral instruments pointed directly at the cloth itself, which all came out negative for the presence of pigments.” This is untrue. It’s not clear that Glover knows what a “spectral instrument” is, but if it means one that actually produced a spectrum, then there were four. Roger and Marty Gilbert measured visible light reflectance and UV-Fluorescence Spectra,9 Roger Morris, Larry Schwalbe and Ronald London used an X-ray fluorescence spectrometer,10 and Joe Acetta and Stephen Baumgart measured infrared reflectance.11 Sam Pellicori used a miniature battery powered spectrometer.12 Only two of these identified specific elements. Morris et al. identified iron, calcium and strontium. Whereas the latter two were found more or less uniformly all over the Shroud, the iron density was variable, and in a series of measurements across the face appeared to match the density of the image. Glover’s statement that it was found in uniform amounts, the same on the image areas as the non-image areas, is untrue. Pellicori’s results were comparable, although by comparing them to control spectra from different intensities of iron oxide, he concluded that there was insufficient to produce a visible image. This is in line with the idea that the pigment, if any, has largely decayed.
“The iron on the shroud is in uniform amounts along with calcium and strontium and this gets onto the cloth during the retting process. […] It’s been scientifically proven that during this retting process, certain minerals, like iron, calcium and strontium, will be absorbed into the linen textile, and that’s why there’s iron on the Shroud.” This is no more than a guess. No experiments have been carried out on mineral absorption during retting, and it is not even certain that the cloth was river- or pond-retted rather than dew-retted.


• “Positive Tests for Proteins.” Walter McCrone suspected that the image was due to the application of pigment, which, after some consideration of dry powder, he decided had been in a liquid form, the dry pigment mixed with water and a ‘glue’ of made of proteinaceous tempera. To test for protein he used Amido Black and Fuschin.
“[The Amido Black test for proteins] is known in science to be very inconclusive.” This is untrue. Glover has made it up. The test is widely used in forensic examinations and is accurately diagnostic on many different substrates, including textiles. Heller and Adler found that when they tried it, the cellulose of the fibres also turned black, but it is not clear that they successfully removed excess dye by rinsing their fibres in acetic acid, as required by the test, which, had they done so, might have been much more specific for protein. Here are two photomicrographs from McCrone & Skirius,13 showing linen fibres stained with Amido Black, the first of which are not smeared with particles of protein, and second of which are.


The STuRP scientists did not find any protein on the image fibres. “Absolute proof, the body images have no proteins.” This is untrue. If we ignore Glover’s abusive comments on McCrone personally, which we should, we have two scientific accounts of attempts to detect proteins on the image fibres of the Shroud, with wholly contradictory results. This is not proof of anything. It prompts further inquiry. An authenticist, as they always do, rejects the evidence they don’t like as lies. A scientist – and there are a few still working on the Shroud – looks for possible reasons for the discrepancy. Sure, fraud on one part or the other is one of those reasons, but it is certainly not the only one – difference in experimental procedure is more typically the reason – and until these alternatives have been rejected, a more open-minded approach to the investigation is preferred. The trouble with Christians is… they’re so unChristian! It is notable that Heller and Adler did not accuse McCrone of fraud, any more than he accused them. They both attempted to find possible reasons why the other came to the opposite conclusion to themselves, unfortunately without resolving the issue.
“Unlike McCrone, STuRP performed more than eight different types of chemical experiments, using various reactants for protein detection.” According to ‘A Chemical Investigation of the Shroud of Turin,’ Heller & Adler14 tried eight different tests, but found six of them useless. It is interesting, and somewhat frustrating, that the two they used, and the two that McCrone used, were different.
“When [Heller and Adler] applied proteases to the Shroud, that yellow-straw colour, it had no effect whatsoever. It did not remove the colour, therefore proving there are no proteins in this.” This is untrue. Tempera is very dilute, and colourless. Unless it had yellowed a great deal with age, there is no reason why protease, even if it removed any protein completely, would change the colour of the substrate. There is good evidence that the yellow colour of both the image and non-image areas of the Shroud is due to degradation of the cellulose, which, of course, would not be affected by protease. Some areas of the Shroud are a darker yellow, which Heller and Adler attribute to ‘serum,’ a much more concentrated protein, which was either yellow to start with or yellowed more intensely than any paint medium, and these areas did become paler, until they matched ‘non-serum’ fibres.

• “Optical Properties of the Image Fibers.” Whenever one releases a video or blogpost into the World Wide Web, it is important to realise that one has no control over who watches, hears or reads it. This series of lectures may have been directed at a small group of interested but not particularly well-informed Christians in Toronto, but it may be seen by anybody, including people who like to check the lecturer’s credentials, and the sources of his facts. I wonder what they will make of Glover’s characterisation of McCrone in this section of his presentation, including “Incompetence,” “flawed methodology,” “amateurish mistake,” and “only a fool.” This contrasts rather sharply with every single article I can find about him on the web. Glover had better be very sure of his ground. But is he?
This is McCrone: “There is a very simple optical test that differentiates blood from red ochre or vermillion – the Becke line test for refractive index. Blood in any form or any organic derivative of blood has refractive indices less than 1.60. Red ochre and vermillion have indices nearly double that of blood, or nearly 3.0. Observing such particles with magnifications of at least 500 times differentiates instantly between these two possibilities, blood or red pigments, simply by focusing up-and-down. The high refractive index particles concentrate the illuminating light beam in the microscope like a lens and show a bright centre as you focus above best focus. Blood or any low refracting particles show a dark centre under the same focusing conditions.”15
And this is Heller & Adler: “When a red non-birefringent coated fibril and a birefringent red particulate coated fibril were compared side-by-side immersed in benzene (index of refraction = 1.50), the Becke line movements were in opposite directions. Therefore, the refractive index of the non-birefringent red particles is less than 1.5, while it is greater than 1.5 for the birefringent red particles, indicating that they are quite different materials.”14
As they stand, these two statements are entirely compatible. Both McCrone and Heller & Adler noticed birefringent red particles with refractive indices greater than 1.5. The difference between the two is that McCrone did not see any particles with refractive indices less than 1.5, but Heller & Adler did. Glover speculates that the Mylar tape (refractive index about 1.7) made the non-birefringent red particles appear to have a higher refractive index than they really had, but this is a guess. The reason for the discrepancy is currently undetermined.
Glover claims that McCrone concluded “the images were painted based on testing a single sample.” “McCrone made this hasty conclusion that all of the bloodstains were painted with these pigments on the basis of looking at one single sample.” “It’s like concluding the Shroud images must be made of bugs’ legs because I found a bug leg on the one sample.” This is completely untrue. McCrone examined thousands of particles on over 30 sticky-tape slides, most of which were ‘blood-stain slides.’ Even regarding refractive indices, he wrote, “On examining thousands of red image particles on the shroud tapes, I saw no low refractive red particles except rose madder particles and a few red silk fibers from the Shroud wrapping cloth).”15 Either Glover has not read McCrone’s work, or he’s misunderstood it, or he’s just making it up.
• “Negative blood tests.” Is there blood on the Shroud? One way of looking for it is to search for the elements of which it is made. Of course, finding, say, iron or calcium on a cloth does not show there is blood on it, but not finding either iron or calcium, even when using instruments that would surely detect it if it were there, is good evidence that there is no blood. And rather to the disappointment of the whole STuRP team, Morris, Schwalbe and London found no potassium, an important constituent. Attempts to qualify this deficiency have been numerous, contradictory, and unconvincing. One hypothesis is that the limitations of Morris et al.’s instruments meant that they were unable to detect it; another, that somehow, the blood transferred from the body to the cloth left its potassium behind, and a third that the potassium has leached away in the period since arriving on the cloth. None of these has been demonstrated, and in themselves, certainly cannot be said to disprove Mccrone’s hypothesis.

ARGUMENT THREE: ALLEGED BIBLICAL INNACURACIES
These are listed under 6 main headings. Most the statements are themselves largely unevidenced, so the best way of refuting skeptics holding to them is simply to ask them to demonstrate that they must be correct. Remarkably, however, Glover manages to get most of his refutation wrong even here!

1). The hair of the man in the Shroud does not match that of a 1st century Jew. In the absence of any information of images of 1st century Jews, this cannot be more than a guess. But…
Nazirites were the exception to the norm, in that they swore an oath not to cut their hair for the duration of their vow. Glover implies that Jesus might have taken a Nazirite vow, although this seems to contradict the Last Supper (although some determined adherents of this hypothesis point out that we are not told in the Gospels that Jesus actually drank any of the cup that he shared with his disciples). The fact that Nazirites distinguished themselves by not cutting their hair suggests that the norm was for men to keep their hair cut.
“The world renowned ethnologist, Carlton S. Coons has clearly stated that, ‘after analysing numerous photos of the Shroud man, I conclude that he was a very definite physical type, found in ancient and modern Sephardic Jews.‘” Glover is referring to the now discredited Carleton Stephens Coon, whose ideas about race and sub-species of Homo sapiens were heavily criticised even as long ago in 1939, when he wrote, “the earliest Homo sapiens known, as represented by several samples from Europe and Africa, was an ancestral long-headed white man of short stature and moderately great brain size.”16 Coon’s conclusions about “physical types” are no longer generally considered valid.
“The world renowned historian Daniel Ropps […] “Hair worn long, parted in the middle, and having what looks to be a long, unbounded pigtail in the back is absolutely typical for Jewish men of ancient first century times.” This is untrue. Even the quote is wrong: “unbound” makes a little more sense than “unbounded.” However, came up with it was distorting the findings of Henri Daniel-Rops and Hugo Gressman, who are usually mentioned together in this context. Both of these scholars used the Old Testament and Middle Eastern bas reliefs and paintings from Egypt to Mesopotamia for their research, and tentatively decided that long hair was supported by their research, although without committing themselves. The source material is Hugo Gressman, ‘Die Haartracht der Israelen,’17 and Henri Daniel-Rops, ‘La Vie Quotidienne en Palestine au Temps de Jésus.’18
The Arch of Titus.” You can clearly see certain Jews with longer hair that’s shoulder length.” No, you can’t. None of the people accompanying the menorah have beards. On the other hand they do all wear laurel crowns, and may actually be victorious Roman soldiers, not Jewish captives.
The Letter of St Paul to the Corinthians. ” οὐδὲ ἡ φύσις αὐτὴ διδάσκει ὑμᾶς ὅτι ἀνὴρ μὲν ἐὰν κομᾷ, ἀτιμία αὐτῷ ἐστιν, γυνὴ δὲ ἐὰν κομᾷ, δόξα αὐτῇ ἐστιν; ὅτι ἡ κόμη ἀντὶ περιβολαίου δέδοται.” (1 Corinthians 11:14-15) ‘The solution to this question must be sought in the two different words for hair that the Greek uses [triches and kome]. The first one means hair as such; the second, which is used here, means the hairdo, hair that is neatly held by a ribbon or lace like a woman’s. This is not true. Ancient Greek does not distinguish triches from kome. Of course we can’t be sure what St Paul meant by ‘long hair’ – to the neck, to the shoulders, to the waist? – so it seems futile to try to interpret what he says in a metrological sense. The only specimen of 1st century Jewish male hair ever discovered was by Simon Gibson, in Akeldama. “The length of the hair was medium to short, averaging 3-4 inches. The color was reddish.”19

2). The gospel of St John refers to strips of cloth like a bandage, not a single sheet. There has been much discussion of the meaning of othonia, which is used to describe various long thin cloths from bandages to strips of sail-cloth, and it is perfectly possible to reconcile John with the synoptic evangelists if you wish to. However, Glover illustrates this point with a silly demonstration from the same BBC documentary mentioned previously, showing that the Shroud measures 8 x 2 cubits. it doesn’t, and nobody who has explored this aspect of the Shroud at all can possibly think that it does.

3). The man in the Shroud is too tall for a 1st century Jew. This is another silly claim which requires no refutation. People come in a range of heights, regardless of what a national average may be at any time, and anyway it is impossible to measure or calculate the height of the man in the Shroud, so vague are the indications. But Glover will refute it nevertheless. He thinks that 5’10” is a good estimation of the height of the man in the image, but cuts his real height down to 5’9″ (1.75m) on the grounds that the Shroud has probably been stretched over the centuries. According to Glover, this exactly fits the stature of the 1st century human remains found in Galilee, and the “idea male height” specified in the Talmud. Neither of these is true.

In the absence of any 1st century Jews, estimation of height depends on the measurement of the femur, and a multiplication factor to convert it into standing height. Yossi Nagar, of the Israel Antiquities Authority, concludes that the “average stature,” between 332 BC and 638 AD was “166cm for males, 147cm for females.”20 Arensburg & Smith calculated 169cm from burials at Jericho,21 and Arensburg, Goldstein, Nathan and Rak found 1659mm from burials at En-Gedi.22 Glover goes on to suggest that his 1.75m exactly matches an “ideal male height” of “4 ells,” as listed in the Talmud. However his source for this is a 1910 book on ‘Talmudic Archaeology,’23 which says: “from many particularly Halachic statements, it is clear that the normal stature of a human being was considered to be 3 cubits up to the shoulders, and 4 cubits up to the crown of the head (about 1.76m).” This makes no sense (the head representing a quarter of the total height of a man) and is probably due to a misunderstanding of Eruvin 48a, where a person’s body “typically measures 3 cubits”, but in a bed he needs an extra cubit to enable a bit of free movement.24

In the previous section Glover showed us Rachel Jackson solemnly presenting Rageh Omaar with a “cubit” of 55cm, so that he could measure out the Shroud (440cm x 110cm) as 8 cubits by 2 cubits. However, if a man is 175cm and 4 cubits high, a cubit is 44cm, far too small for the Shroud, or if he is 175cm and 3 cubits high, a cubit is 58cm, which is far too large.

In fact, of course, neither Glover nor Mark Antonacci, from whom he acquires this information, have any idea what ‘the ‘Talmudische Archäologie’ or the Talmud actually says. This is all absurd and it would have been better not to venture into these waters at all.

4). The man in the Shroud looks older than 33. Well, so would you if you’d been scourged and crucified, is the obvious response, but there’s no need to over-egg the pudding. Glover goes on about “all the qualified experts who have studied the Shroud man closely,” who “seem to agree that he was between about 30-45 years old.” All? Qualified? Experts? Can anybody name just one? I thought not…

5). The image does not reflect Jewish burial customs, which St John specifically mentions. By all accounts, the burial of Jesus was an exception to whatever rules there may have been, and to be quite honest, we have no idea what the customs of the day were anyway. Archaeologically, second temple burials are known almost exclusively from stone ossuaries; we know almost nothing about the practice of laying dead people out, and anyway, when St John, mentions the customs of the Jews, we can’t be sure if he is referring to pre- or post- 79AD, and the destruction of Jerusalem. The author of John’s gospel probably lived somewhere in Turkey, and may not have known what the customs of Jerusalem were. Still, we can speculate.
Crucifixion victims were usually thrown into common graves. This is probably true, as in fact most people were, or at least laid reverently to rest in them. The number of cave-tombs around Jerusalem would not be sufficient to house the majority of the population and there is minimal evidence to explain what happened to them all. Nevertheless, since at least one crucifixion victim has been found in an ossuary, it is certain that not all crucifixion victims were placed in common graves to rot away.
There is no evidence of myrrh or aloes on the Shroud. There is no evidence that myrrh or aloes were ever associated with Jewish burials at all. Only St John mentions it, and it is not clear if he meant it practically or metaphorically.
The body wasn’t washed. If the Shroud image represented an actual crucifixion victim, it is clear from the blood on the arms that he wasn’t thoroughly washed, but according to Fred Zugibe, there is no way some of the scourge marks would be visible if his back, at least, hadn’t been washed. There is a popular idea that bodies shouldn’t be washed if they are covered in blood, but I think this is a misunderstanding. While it may be important that as much of a person as possible should be kept together, there is nothing to imply that it must be kept on the body. Victims of bombings are buried with absorbent cloths used to collect fallen blood, and it should be possible to do the same with bloodstains. Wipe the body clean, then keep the wipes with body for burial. Not, I have to say, that there’s any evidence that that happened.25
“Skeptics used to say Jewish burial customs did not include putting coins over the eyes, but modern research has proven they did to prevent the eyelids from opening.” This is completely untrue. Somebody has literally just made it up.

6). The Shroud as a textile does not match anything made in the 1st century. This is absolutely true, in spite of rather desperate attempts to discredit it. So here we go:
A quote from John Tyrer, Chartered Textile Technologist at the Manchester College of Technology. “The Shroud is a very poor product by comparison (to mediaeval European fabrics). It is full of warp and weft weaving defects. The impression I am left with is that the cloth is a much cruder and probably earlier fabric than the backing and patches. This I think lifts the shroud out of the Middle Ages more than anything I have seen about the textile.”26 This is a fairly banal comment – of course the Shroud is older than the backing cloth and patches, by about 300 years – and the words in brackets are an invention. Tyrer was comparing the Shroud specifically to the patches and backing cloth, as they appeared on the X-rays taken by Robert Mottern, Ronald London and Roger Morris in 1978.27 A longer and more considered article by Tyrer is ‘Looking at the Shroud of Turin as a Textile,’ in which he discusses various aspects of the cloth, and although he concludes that a 1st century origin is possible, he is cautious about the Z-twist, the 3/1 herringbone weave, and the necessity for 4 healds. “It may be, therefore, that the Shroud linen was originally intended as an expensive apparel fabric that was hastily pressed into service for funerary purposes (Luke 23, v.53). On the other hand, the smooth surface of a twill would probably be an ideal base upon which a forger could paint.”28

Next Glover quotes three specific examples of ancient cloth that he claims compare with the Shroud. Although he gives no sources, let’s try to track them down.


“A 4/1 twill dating from 1450 BC in Egypt.” This is described by August Braulik in an article called ‘Altägyptische Weberei’ (Ancient Egyptian Weaving) in ‘Dingler’s Polytechnische Journal.’29 The text reads:

Gewebe Nr. 36. Von der Mumie des Königs Thutmes II., 18. Dynastie, etwa 1450 v. Chr. (nach Brugsch 1700 v. Chr.). Fundort: Cachette Der-el-Bahari. Flachsfaser sehr fein, sehr gut erhalten, Kettendichte 40, Feinheit Nr. 26 engl. Schussdichte 10 Faden, im Grund Nr. 26 engl. Fransenschuss ist Nr. 40/2 5fach eingetragen. Auf 1 cm sind 10 Fransenschuss, daher in der Leiste per 1 cm 10 + 50 = 60 Schussfäden. Die Abbindung in der Kante ist aus Fig. 1 ersichtlich. Der Grundschuss a bindet durchwegs Leinwand, der Fransenschuss b geht über die ersten 5 Kettenfäden hinweg, bindet bis Faden 12 in Leinwand und geht von da auf der unteren Gewebeseite flottliegend zum Fangfaden zurück.” And here is Fig. 1.

By no stretch of the imagination are we looking at a piece of 4/1 twill. I think it may be being mistaken for a couple of other fragments of cloth, but they are not made of 4/1 twill either.

“2/2 twill leggings discovered to date from 800-500 BC.” These certainly exist, but they are made of wool, are not 3/1, and were unlikely to have been woven on a loom similar to the one the Shroud must have been made on.

“Linen cloths with a 3/1 weave exactly like the Shroud found in Palmyra dating to 136-300 AD.” This is untrue. We have no such thing.

Mechthild Flury-Lemberg compared the seam stitch to one found in Masada. Flury-Lemberg never saw any of the Masada textiles. She compares the seam on the Shroud to a diagram in Hero Granger-Taylor’s report on the Masada Textiles,30 and finds it similar. So it is, but then the stitch is not rare throughout the ages and across the world. Hero Granger-Taylor herself says: “I mostly work on textiles of the Roman period, and particularly on those found at Masada, which date mainly to the period 66-74 AD, so only a short period after Christ’s crucifixion. I have to say that the linen textiles from Masada very much resemble each other and are not at all like the Shroud so it is a relief to me that you do not think that the Shroud dates from this time and place. To answer your question, whether the very characteristic weave, warp-faced 3:1 chevron twill, was developed for a special purpose, the answer is yes: this weave creates a very smooth dense surface and the signs are it was developed for painting and printing on.”31

And there we have it. All the refutations… er… refuted. This is a pity, as it weakens the authenticist argument – although, to be fair, since only about 100 people witnessed the original podcast and even fewer will read this, it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in the great scheme of things. And there is a debate to be involved in. Just as authenticist arguments have not convinced medievalists, so medieval arguments have not convinced authenticists. Claiming that one or the other has been proved is self-evidently untrue, at least in the sense that it has achieved overwhelming consensus. Any particular individual, me or Glover or Joe Marino or Andrea Nicolotti, for example, may feel that he has examined the evidence sufficiently deeply to come to a definitive conclusion, and may attempt to demonstrate to the world that his interpretation is correct, but personal conviction is neither consensus nor reality, except to the person themselves. An honest debate is one in which each side presents its evidence, explains what it means to them, and hopes the audience will be swayed to their point of view. A dishonest debate presents evidence which isn’t true, or tries to win by emotional blackmail rather than reason. Maybe one day I’ll write a post called the Honest Authenticist – but I may have to invent him first!

1 ‘Oakwood Bible Study #4: Refuting the Shroud Skeptics,’ Real Seekers,
youtube.com/watch?v=UFnwmziRZkQ&t=4473s

2 ‘Unexpected Errors Affect Dating Techniques,’ Andy Coghlan, New Scientist, 1989

3 ‘Report on Stage 3 of the International Collaborative Program,’ T.C. Aitchison et al., Radiocarbon, Volume 32, 1990

4 ‘An Intercomparison of some AMS and Small Gas Counter Laboratories,’ Richard Burleigh et al., Radiocarbon, Volume 28, 1986

5 ‘The Remarkable Metrological History of Radiocarbon Dating [II],’ Lloyd A. Currie, Journal of Research of the National Institute of Standards and Technology, 2004

6 ‘The Shroud of Turin,’ directed by David Rolfe, BBC, presented by Rageh Omaar, 2008

7 ‘The Shroud of Turin, Blood or Artist’s Pigment?’ Walter McCrone, Accounts of Chemical Research, 1990

8 Shroud of Turin Research at McCrone, McCrone Research Institute, mccroneinstitute.org/research/shroud-of-turin-research-at-mccrone/

9 ‘Ultraviolet-Visible Reflectance and Fluorescence Spectra of the Shroud of Turin,’ Roger and Marion Gilbert, Applied Optics, Volume 19, 1980

10 ‘X-Ray Fluorescence Investigation of the Shroud of Turin,’ Roger Morris et al., X-Ray Spectrometry, Volume 9, 1980

11 ‘Infrared Reflectance Spectroscopy and Thermographic Investigations of the Shroud of Turin,’ Joseph Accetta and Stephen Baumgart, Applied Optics, Volume 19, 1980

12 ‘Spectral Properties of the Shroud of Turin,’ Sam Pellicori, Applied Optics, Volume 19, 1980

13 ‘Light Microscopical Study of the Turin Shroud I,’ Walter McCrone and Christine Skirius, The Microscope, Issue 28, 1980

14 ‘A Chemical Investigation of the Shroud of Turin,’ John Heller and Alan Adler, Canadian Society of Forensic Sciences Journal, Volume 14, 1981

15 Judgement Day for the Turin Shroud, Walter McCrone, 1996

16 The Races of Europe, Carleton S. Coon, 1939

17 ‘Die Haartracht der Israelen,’ Hugo Gressman, Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für die Alttestamentliche Wissenschaft, Volume 34, 1920

18 La Vie Quotidienne en Palestine au Temps de Jésus, Henri Daniel-Rops, 1961

19 ‘The Only Ancient Jewish Male Hair Ever Found,’ James Tabor, Bible History Daily, 2024

20 ‘Human Osteological Database at the Israel Antiquities Authority,’ Yossi Nagar, Bioarchaeology of the Near East, 2011

21 ‘The Jewish population of Jericho,’ Baruch Arensburg and Patricia Smith, Palestine Exploration Quarterly, 1983

22 ‘Skeletal remains of Jews from the Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine periods in Israel,’ Baruch Arensburg et al., Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d’Anthropologie de Paris, Volume 7, 1980

23 Talmudische Archäologie, Volume I, Samuel Krauss, 1910

24 Eruvin 48a, sefaria.org

25 ‘The Man of the Shroud was Washed,’ Frederick Zugibe, Sindon, 1989
‘The Body of Jesus was not Washed, According to the Jewish Burial Custom,’ Bonnie Lavoie et al., Sindon, 1981

26 ‘Shroud X-Radiographs,’ anon, Newsletter of the British Society for the Turin Shroud, Issue 8, 1984

27 ‘Radiographic Examination of the Shroud of Turin: A Preliminary Report,’ Robert Mottern, Ronald London and Roger Morris, Materials Evaluation, Volume 38, 1979

28 ‘Looking at the Shroud of Turin as a Textile,’ John Tyrer, Textile Horizons, 1981

29 ‘Altägyptische Weberei,’ August Braulik, Dingler’s Polytechnische Journal, Volume 311, 1899

30 ‘Textiles from Masada: A Preliminary Selection,’ Avigail Sheffer and Hero Granger-Taylor, in Masada IV, Lamps, Textiles, Baskets, Wood, Bones, ed. Yigael Yadin, 1994

31 Personal communication.


Comments

  1. Well said, Teddi.
    Yes, we must all try to be careful in the matter of the Shroud. It’s such a complicated subject, and the new forms of media are getting complicated too. Good luck to us all.

    JL

    ***

    As long as I’m commenting here again, I might briefly discuss Hugh’s current post, “Absence of Evidence? Make It Up!” Like many other posts by Hugh, it seems to have its pros and cons, its strengths and weaknesses.

    I haven’t watched the video by Dale Glover that Hugh is responding to, but assume that Hugh is probably correct in some or many of the points he makes. I’ll limit my comments here to the chemical aspect and the question of Dr. Walter McCrone. Dale was apparently too sharp and personal in his attack on McCrone, even incorrect in some of the factual criticisms he made. Whether Hugh should have singled out Dale for such public censure is questionable, though. Dale is relatively young, relatively new to the Turin Shroud field, and his communication style is sometimes flawed. With his podcast he has in recent years become slightly “high profile” in the field, but is still a relative beginner, as he would probably admit.

    McCrone’s case is a fascinating one. He ignored or was strangely unaware of a massive amount of other evidence, both historical evidence and forensic evidence, supporting the possible authenticity of the Turin Shroud, yet he focused solely on a couple of relatively minor issues that he investigated only through his microscope, especially some highly ambiguous particles found on the Shroud.

    Those keenly interested might wish to read a couple of impressive articles skeptical of McCrone and his research:
    1) David Ford’s “The Shroud of Turin’s ‘Blood’ Images,” from the year 2000, totaling 32 pages but only 19 bearing text. Ford puts the word “blood” into quotation marks in his title not to suggest any skepticism by himself as to the reality of the blood but only to keep his title objective. 2) Thibault Heimburger’s 2008 article “A Detailed Critical Review of the Chemical Studies….” It’s 36 pages long, of which 33 are the main text. Both articles can be found on shroud.com. Thibault’s article is oddly to be found by searching not for its title but for “Thibault Final 01.pdf.” On page 29 of Thibault’s article, he covers the issue of the very minor amount of potassium found in the blood on the Shroud (Hugh in his “Negative Blood Tests” section wrote that “no potassium” had been found, but that’s not true), offering a very reasonable explanation for its near absence.

    By the way, did McCrone ever address the related question of how, in his “fake blood” and “fake image” scenarios, the alleged artificial substances were applied to the cloth so as to form the shapes of the body and the bloodstains? The STURP team in Turin in 1978 apparently determined that no brush strokes were detectable on those areas. At least one Shroud skeptic has therefore stated that he thought the semi-liquid blood was dribbled onto the cloth with a rag or a straw — an amusing scenario for sure.

    JL

  2. Hi, Everybody,

    I just now came across John Loken’s comment from another recent discussion here on Hugh’s website. John said:

    “ Scholarship by podcast is not a good idea[.]. The Shroud field (and other fields too) has entered a new era with the recent proliferation of such podcasts. Old-school, disciplined research has given way to a media circus atmosphere and casual lack of exactitude. Speech is simply not as precise as writing. And in that ocean of talk, facts and real scholarship can often go lost.”

    More and more, I have been thinking this same thing, also. When a subject is debated in writing, each advocate has the luxury of the ability to double-check one’s information or to research something before responding. This increases the likelihood that the information proffered is more reliable. While written debates remove a lot of the excitement of a live debate , written debates remove one of the biggest hazards of a live debate —being ambushed with information that one knows nothing or very little about. If unable to provide a rebuttal (if a viable one is possible) due to a lack of knowledge and/or preparation, it can result in giving the audience tge distinct impression that the unrefuted comment by the opponent must, therefore, be correct. But, this can often not be the case. And, well, this can be a very serious problem in terms of spreading misinformation.

    These podcast debates are a double-edged sword. While they can be very beneficial in terms of being a launching pad for more in-depth research and knowledge of the various issues swimming around a topic, it is advisable that they not be end-points to what one thinks about an outrageously complex subject such as the Shroud in Turin.

    Best regards,

    Teddi

  3. Hi, Hugh,

    The Vinland Map is still very much a controversial matter –as is McCrone’s findings with regard to it (as well as the findings of others with regard to it.) As with many things with the Shroud, things are often not what they appear to be at first glance. I have listened to just a little bit of this series (and I hope to listen to more of it, bit by bit) but I link to it here to show that the issue of the Vinland Map is still not resolved. And, again, there’s that pesky issue of the radiocarbon dating of it which puts it smack into medieval times! Ha! A fun turn of events that parallels the Shroud situation but in an inverse way.

    Regarding what “proof” is, I can tell you that lawyers (even from Tennessee) and regular folks often use the word “proof” as a synonym for “evidence.” And, it is important to note that jurors assess the “proof”/”evidence” as the “finders of fact” –but, we know that this is just a fiction –it is just 12 people assessing information. It is not as if they have special powers (like God who is all-seeing and all-knowing) to actually know what is True with events that they, themselves, never witnessed.

    I mentioned that I (and others in the legal world) often use the word “proof” as a synonym for “evidence.” There’s often the question: “Where’s your proof,” “what proof do you have” or the call to “present your proof.” Like any synonym, there can be some subtle differences between words that are synonymous (such as a “house” versus a “home,” and a “home” versus a “residence”), but that does not mean that the words are still not commonly used interchangeably –even in professional settings such as a courtroom (even in Tennessee . . .) With synonyms, these words can take on some extra meanings in certain contexts, although sometimes they do not. For example, one could argue that a “home” can be an apartment (as distinguished from the different architecture of a house), but it can, also, be a house. But, some will argue (and some will dispute this) that the word “home” conveys a cozy type of place whereas a “house” is a more sterile term. But, I could easily tell someone that I went back to my home or I went back to my house –same place, same meaning being conveyed, but, one can parse out some differences (as aforementioned.

    So, while it is important that people use precise words to convey what they mean, this can be taken to a hypercritical level to where people will be worried about saying anything unless they think deeply about it –and this destroys the ability for people to speak extemporaneously.

    Again, you mentioned (earlier) “tempera” –and did not specify “gelatin tempera.” And you claimed that it is colorless –and I demonstrated that tempera made from egg yolks or gelatin is not colorless –gelatin does have a faint yellow color that can be detected in some circumstances, and gelatin can cause cellulose to yellow with age under certain circumstances.

    And, again, you mentioned: “When two scientists come to two different conclusions about the same piece of evidence, it cannot be said that anything has been proved.” Well, I disagree with this, because one scientist’s proof/evidence might not be very reliable, whereas the other’s might be. Nothing (other than our own consciousness) can be “proven” with certainty. And, it’s a myth that there is, with other things, this “proof” by your definition of it. It’s never 100% certain –unless, again, we’re talking about our own consciousness. It’s always “degrees of certainty” –and when jurors determine “facts” this is a legal fiction –because jurors can be wrong. So that “proof” is always really just evidence of different degrees of reliability. And one person’s evidence/proof might be great and the other person’s –not so much.

    Also, and regarding specificity with language and absence of evidence, you still have not responded to your heavy insinuation that all authenticists (at least the ones you are aware of) are dishonest –since you expressed that you would need to invent one. So, where’s your evidence of our dishonesty?

    Best regards,

    Teddi

  4. How interesting! I had no idea that a “scintilla of evidence,” which I have occasionally heard as a phrase before, was an actual legal term. However, it plays into my hands, I think, regarding proof. Because “proof” is certainly not a synonym for “evidence,” not even in Tennessee. It is a synonym for “evidence used to either support or ascertain that something happened or that a person’s statement is true.” (I got that from the Cornell website, which was new to me) In other words, after the truth has been established, then all the evidence that supports or ascertains it is the “proof.” All the other evidence is not proof at all. The evidence that the man was holding a knife covered in the victim’s blood is not proof of his guilt until he is found guilty. If it turns out that he has simply picked it up off the floor, then it is not proof.

    In the case of authenticity of the Shroud, no-one could claim that there wasn’t considerably more than a “scintilla of evidence” on both sides, and therefore – back to Cornell again – no “summary judgement or directed verdict” can be made. In the course of a trial, or debate, no doubt attorneys for both sides may claim that their evidence is proof, but whether it is or not is not up to them to decide – and in the case of even a “scintilla” of evidence it is not up to the judge to decide either. The matter must go to a jury. Until they pronounce, nothing is proved, regardless of what conclusion reasonable minds have come to.

    You’re certainly correct that McCrone claimed his evidence was “proof” of a medieval provenance, but I think he was wrong to use the word. It would only constitute proof if the Shroud were formally accepted as medieval by the Catholic Church. Even then, you may say, there will be people who still insist that it is authentic, even as even when a criminal is found guilty “proven beyond all reasonable doubt” and sent to prison, there are always those who claim him to be innocent. And sometimes, of course, they’re right.

    Vinland Map is an excellent illustration. When it was discovered, and bought, there was no agreement as to whether it was a fake or not. Between 1957 and 1964, there was not only no consensus, but no formal attribution one way or another. Then after extensive investigation it was considered real, and presented for exhibition, in 1965, though the controversy was acknowledged even then. Even in 2002 it was only formally described as “interesting.” Now, however, it is recognised as a fake by both Yale University, the Beinecke Library and the Smithsonian, and now, at last, McCrone’s “evidence” constitutes part of the “proof.” Up to 2012, the chief “authenticists,” Jaqueline Olin, Rene Larson, Garman Harbottle and J. Huston McCulloch continued to present evidence hat it was fake, but they have not published anything in the last ten years, and seem to have accepted that they were wrong. No one is even calling for further investigation. For now, at least, that case is closed.

    Best wishes,
    Hugh

  5. Hi, again,

    I’d like to quickly address another thing that you mentioned which is as follows:

    “Dale and I have frequently crossed swords in the past over his and my different definitions of the word ‘proof.’ When two scientists come to two different conclusions about the same piece of evidence, it cannot be said that anything has been proved.”

    I don’t know or recall what Dale’s definition of “proof” is, but I can tell you how I use the word –and how it is used in the legal world. “Proof” is synonymous with “evidence.” To establish something as a legal “fact” one must present “proof”/”evidence.” Then, there is the issue of “standard of proof” which is how much evidence is needed to reach a certain degree of confidence. So, for example, the lowest level of proof is a “scintilla of evidence,” and then we move up to “reasonable and articulable suspicion,” “probable cause,” a “preponderance of the evidence,” “clear and convincing proof,” and “beyond a reasonable doubt.” These all constitute “proof” –it’s just that some standards are higher than others.

    If two scientists offer proof, but one offers a “scintilla of evidence” and the other offers proof “beyond a reasonable doubt,” well, reasonable minds know which party has “proven” their case to a greater certainty. For some reason, people like to think of “proof” as 100% certainty, but this is really never the case –unless one is referring to proving one’s own consciousness. Otherwise, we’re just talking about degrees of confidence in either a piece of evidence or a body of evidence.

    McCrone offered proof regarding the Shroud’s authenticity (or lack thereof) and so did STURP and others. So, the question is whose (if anyone’s) proof is the most convincing? So, it’s okay that there are two opposing sides –that’s almost always the case –that one can find experts who disagree on just about any topic –even whether Jesus (religious issues aside) was a historical figure, Orin he was just a myth like Zeus.

    So, it would be unreasonable to never be able to make a decision as to what we think is true just because two experts disagree on the topic. We have to put our “thinking caps” on, use our brains, analyze the evidence and figure out if anyone makes a case that is convincing –and determining how convincing we think it is.

    For example, at the moment (this could change in the future), while I think that the Sudarium of Oviedo is legitimately the face cloth that covered Jesus’ face, my confidence level in this is somewhere above a preponderance of the evidence, but it is definitely below “beyond a reasonable doubt.” But, it has been many years since I’ve looked into the details of this topic, and before I weighed in on it now, I would want to more deeply investigate the issue. So, while I think it is legitimate, it’s not at a level of proof that causes me to want to use it to advocate for the Shroud’s authenticity. Instead, I think that it is interesting evidence to present to more receptive audiences as opposed to skeptics.

    And, regarding McCrone and the Vinland map –this is still a controversial matter as I remember reading that radiocarbon dating goes against McCrone’s finding. (!!!)

    And, you mentioned that Dale’s assertion that the late Walter McCrone was the Richard Dawkins of his day is “utterly absurd,” and that the two have almost nothing in common. You’ve got to be kidding, right??? How ’bout this for a ridiculously HUGE thing that they had in common: they were/are both wrecking balls that were/are passionately seeking to destroy evidence and arguments that can lead atheists to Christ for their salvation. We know for a fact that there are many atheists and religious people who were non-Christians who have become Christians because of the evidence that points to the Shroud’s authenticity and which points to the Resurrection as the mechanism for the formation of the body image. McCrone tried his best to rob people of the very best evidence, most solid evidence that there is that the Christian God is real. Dawkins does the same –although, I recently heard that he is starting to see how disastrous godless societies are, and he’s calling himself something like a “cultural Christian” or something like that. But, it’s interesting that he’s sort of softening on that. One of the other top atheists –Sam Harris– has, also, softened his once more radical atheistic stance, but perhaps not as much as Dawkins.

    Anyhow, you trying that aspic yet???

    Cheers,

    Teddi

  6. Hi, Hugh,

    Tut, tut, tut . . . so you’re refusing to partake of the bite of humble pie that I offered you. What about at least a nibble of some gelatinous aspic with tasty bits of crow in it??? I hear it’s delicious . . . although I, myself, try to avoid it at all costs due to my crow allergy.

    You said that “[t]empera is very dilute and colorless.” Well, I pointed out that tempera paint can be made with egg yolks and gelatin —both of which have a yellow color —albeit to different degrees. You did not, however, specify which type of gelatin —you made a broad statement, so I wanted to address that. However, I know that you know that McCrone ruled out egg and casein tempera for specific reasons —so, I know that you were really referring to a gelatin tempera (even though that’s not what you said), but, there is still the issue that gelatin, itself, can be yellowish.

    You write:
    “Heller and Adler did apply proteases to the Shroud image fibres, and they didn’t change colour. However, this does not prove that there were no proteins on the fibres they tested.”

    Well, the whole point for Heller and Adler’s testing the yellow image fibers with a protease is because McCrone was claiming that the straw-yellow color was due to aged protein. So, yes, since the protease treatment did not result in a removal of the yellow color, and a reversion to the color of the non-image fibrils, this is phenomenal evidence that no protein (gelatinous or otherwise) was causing the yellow body-image color on the Shroud.

    You repeat the insinuation that gelatin is colorless —“removing colourless proteins” —but, again, gelatin is actually not colorless —it is yellowish (and that is more or less detectable depending on how one views the gelatin —on a macroscopic level (and whether dry or crystallized, etc.) or on a microscopic level, and whether it has been heated past its glass transition point or not, etc. There are lots of factors here to take into consideration. But, again, gelatin is not really clear.

    You also write: “Removing colourless proteins also does not change the colour of the substrate.”
    Well, the substrate for the gelatinous tempera paint that McCrone claims forms the body image on the Shroud is merely the linen, itself. Linen can, of course, yellow over time —as cellulose is known to sometimes yellow over time. But, this alone cannot account for the body image, because the color of the merely aged cellulose would be the color of the non-image area on the Shroud —which is NOT straw-yellow. And, the body image on the Shroud exhibits no cementation that would be indicative of the presence of any liquid substance having been on the body image (minus, of course, the serum halos which do NOT have body image underneath them —when he protein was removed with the protease treatment. So, this is a red herring that you could add, for extra pizazz, to the aspic with the bits of crow in it!)🤣🤣🤣

    With regard to the gelatin tempera on the Shroud that you mention —well, “Whoa, Nelly!” —where has that been reliably evidenced? Certainly not through the Amido Black test which (like the methylene blue test and the Coomassie Brilliant Blue test) is not a good test when seeking to determine if protein is on linen since these stains also adsorb onto the surface of oxidized cellulosic materials. And, McCrone made the ridiculous claim that the STURP team must not have followed the well-known directions of rinsing with acetic acid —which they did. I’ve examined this issue before and Rogers mentions the rinsing and I seem to recall that Heller and maybe Adler, also, have mentioned this.

    Also, I don’t know where you’ve been looking, but the issue of whether gelatin causes yellowing with age is a controversial and very complex one. It most certainly can yellow with age. The issue of gelatin’s effect on cellulosic materials and whether it provides a protective effect or damaging effect is quite involved, and it depends upon many factors. McCrone actually wasn’t being ridiculous when he posited that possibility for the body image. But, I will be explaining in detail in my book why this is not the case.

    Anyhow, the moth needs to stop dancing around the flame and get to an appointment.

    Cheers (and let me know how the aspic tastes after you have a bite . . .),

    Teddi

  7. Hi Teddi,

    Well done, you! If it wasn’t for your dogged persistence and tenacity there’d be nobody trying to pull the nail out of the coffin I guess. And I appreciate that you’re busy on your book and haven’t time to plough through my posts – let alone Dale’s marathon podcasts – so thank you for finding even one point you think I’ve got wrong: I’ve no doubt you could find others if you wanted.

    Still, have you in fact countered my claim?

    Dale: “When [Heller and Adler] applied proteases to the Shroud, that yellow-straw colour, it had no effect whatsoever. It did not remove the colour, therefore proving there are no proteins in this.”
    Me: “This is untrue.”

    I appreciate that there are several parts to this, and some of them are true. Heller and Adler did apply proteases to the Shroud image fibres, and they didn’t change colour. However, this does not prove that there were no proteins on the fibres they tested. Removing colourless proteins also does not change the colour of the substrate. Now you contend that tempera can be (a) yellowish, and (b) can become more yellow over time. These do not apply in the case of any gelatin tempera on the Shroud. Gelatin (and McCrone specifically decided that the tempera was not made of egg-yolk) “has a faint yellow colouration” in concentrated block form. When diluted 1:10 or 1:15 with water, the colour is wholly undetectable. It is applied in very thin layers, and as numerous artists websites and books inform us, it does not yellow with age. Removing it with protease would have no effect on the colour of any substrate it was applied to, even after 700 years.

    I know very well that McCrone thought that the image was, in fact, caused by a yellowing paint medium, but as I have said, I disagree with him on that point. I think the reason the Shroud is discoloured is indeed due to the degradation of the linen fibres, same as you do.

    But there’s more. Dale and I have frequently crossed swords in the past over his and my different definitions of the word ‘proof.’ When two scientists come to two different conclusions about the same piece of evidence, it cannot be said that anything has been proved.

    Bottom line: The fact that proteases do not change the colour of a substrate does not demonstrate that there was no protein on the substrate, let alone prove it. The statement: “It did not remove the colour, therefore proving there are no proteins in this” is untrue, as I claimed.

    Better luck next time,
    Best wishes,
    Hugh

  8. Alright, Hugh, I’ll make time for another quick comment, just because I’m a moth attracted to the flame.

    You say:

    “When [Heller and Adler] applied proteases to the Shroud, that yellow-straw colour, it had no effect whatsoever. It did not remove the colour, therefore proving there are no proteins in this.” This is untrue. Tempera is very dilute, and colourless. Unless it had yellowed a great deal with age, there is no reason why protease, even if it removed any protein completely, would change the colour of the substrate. There is good evidence that the yellow colour of both the image and non-image areas of the Shroud is due to degradation of the cellulose, which, of course, would not be affected by protease. Some areas of the Shroud are a darker yellow, which Heller and Adler attribute to ‘serum,’ a much more concentrated protein, which was either yellow to start with or yellowed more intensely than any paint medium, and these areas did become paler, until they matched ‘non-serum’ fibres.”

    First, you mention “tempera.” Well, tempera (as in tempera paint) has historically been made from egg yolks (which, of course, are yellow) or casein (such as from milk and cheese and it can be colored white, creamy yellow, tan or gray) or gelatin. Some will say that gelatin is clear, but it really isn’t –it has a faint yellow coloration, and, especially, when it crystallizes, it turns yellowish (like a pale citrine) as I, myself, have personally seen under my microscope. Also, milk, cheese, eggs and gelatin are all proteins which would be broken down by protein.

    You are, of course, correct that the straw-yellow color on the Shroud (of PURE body image) did NOT break down with protease treatment. By “pure” body image, I exclude serum halos found at the perimeters of the bloodstains which have a yellow coloration that is different from what makes the body image yellow. And, of course, serum is proteinaceous, so it would, of course, be broken down by protease treatment. And, of course, this is all what Heller and Adler said –so, I am glad that you are in agreement with them (despite your having smeared them as being dishonest since they were authenticists.)

    Of course, it is important to point out that McCrone’s explanation for the straw-yellow body image is that it was due to yellowing from age from the gelatin tempera that he claimed was used to formulate the alleged iron-oxide watercolor paint for the body image and the alleged vermilion watercolor paint for the “blood images.” But, of course, gelatin is protein, and STURP showed through various tests that PURE body image areas (that exclude yellow serum-covered fibers from serum-halos) tested NEGATIVE for protein and were unaffected by contact with protease that would cause the breakdown of proteins.

    And, there is not “good” evidence that the straw-yellow body image is dehydrated, oxidized cellulose. There is GREAT evidence of this –and this evidence TRUMPS McCrone’s very flawed hypothesis for the straw-yellow body image. There is a lot more detail with all of this that I will be explaining in my book.

  9. Hi, Hugh,

    In order to go through your claims, I’d first need to listen to Dale’s show (and I haven’t –as I mentioned before.) And, if I had the time (which I don’t), I’d got through it all. As you know, I am busy writing a book while, simultaneously, researching existing questions and finding new arguments –and this is very, very time-consuming.

    And, as I also mentioned, Dale has different ways of approaching his arguments –and I go a different route, and I don’t always agree with how Dale proceeds, so I don’t care to be in the position of defending scholarship that doesn’t always rise to the very strict scrutiny that I place on information that I rely upon for my own arguments. BUT, this does not mean that scholarship that has been discussed by Dale as well as other Shroud scholars is lacking in support –this is not the case at all. There are different levels of how reliable evidence is. And, just because some evidence might be 50% reliable or 60% reliable (or whatever) does not mean that it is being made up or that it is being twisted or manipulated.

    Moreover, I’d like to ask you what is your evidence for what you close your initial post with: “Maybe one day I’ll write a post called the Honest Authenticist – but I may have to invent him first!” What is your evidence that people like me and Joe and Jack and Giulio and Bill and Paolo and Gil Lavoie and Barbet and Vignon and Delage, Michael Kowalski, David Rolfe and the STURP team (including Barrie!) and others are dishonest??? What is your evidence for that as you falsely smear us all as being dishonest? The wiggle room that you might have to invent the “honest authenticist” is no real wiggle room at all –we know what you mean.

    In earnest,

    Teddi

    But, your title quite clearly defames him as being a liar who is defrauding people, and this is just not true. Where’s your back-up of your title –as opposed to the watering-down of your title in the content of your remarks? Lots of people just read titles and not much more.

  10. Hi Teddi,

    For the third time, I set extreme value on accuracy, and will happily eat humble pie if you point out any of the points I have enumerated that you think are in fact true, undistorted, properly interpreted or properly represented, according to my description.

    I won’t ask again.

    Best wishes,
    Hugh

  11. Hi, Hugh,

    You mention that you were refuting claims by Dale that you claim are “untrue, or a distortion of the truth, or at best a misinterpretation or misrepresentation.” “Distortion,” “misinterpretation” and “misrepresentation” all are very loose terms and often what qualifies as falling under such characterizations can be quite debatable.

    However, the TITLE of your piece is, “Absence of evidence? Make it up!” Given that you mention an ABSENCE of evidence, “absence” is describing that the evidence does not exist. Moreover, the “make it up” comment which follows it, would then mean that evidence is being created out of whole cloth [no request to pardon the pun.]

    To create evidence out of “whole cloth” is to tell a lie so as to perpetrate a fraud. This is quite a serious accusation that you make in your title. Yet, you then use increasingly vague language (“distortion,” “misinterpretation,” and “misrepresentation”) whereby just about anything can fall under this definition –depending upon how one intends to spin the information. So, I would say that your very title is “made up,” because there is an absence of evidence for it.

    The approach that I use to establish authenticity is not the same as how Dale and some other Shroud scholars do it, although there is sometimes some cross-over. I find no need to bring up more debatable pieces of evidence when I have much stronger pieces of evidence to rely upon. However, these stronger pieces of evidence involve science –predominantly chemistry. And, sadly, most people do not want to take the time to learn and understand the chemistry –at least beyond just parroting key words.

    People are often more interested in teaching Shroud scholarship on a more popular level, however, as I warn people –with skeptics like you who are just waiting to pounce on the slightest error– we have to be very, very careful with every claim that we make, because when we are anything short of being fully-prepared to wage battle on an issue, we are walking in a field full of trip wires connected to land-mines.

    Per Aesop, “Slow and steady wins the race.” Heller and Adler’s work was oh-so-slow and, correspondingly, “oh-so-steady.” That is why I love it so! It stands the test of time. People will say that physical altercations will, inevitably, wind up on the ground –where the grappling will take place and the win will be secured. I think that you and I are safely in agreement that the “ground” that the Shroud’s evidence is won or lost on is based in chemistry and physics. These are not easy subjects to understand unless one is a chemist or physicist. After all, we know that even Jackson and Jumper –I know Jackson has a PhD in physics and I think Jumper’s PhD is, also, in physics although he is also an engineer– did not understand much of what Heller and Adler were telling them until they explained it to them.

    Issues like whether there is a pony-tail or not –I really don’t care about that. Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. Whether the “custom of the Jews” involved washing a bloody body that died from a violent death or not is too debatable –and, we can’t be sure what those who buried Jesus thought was customary. Jewish texts have all sort of exceptions and contradictions with regard to this –as I have seen –and we can’t be certain what was the custom in the 1st century. So, hanging the authenticity hat on such arguments is ill-advised.

    There are much, much stronger reasons to think that the Shroud is authentic, and it boils down to its being a supernaturally created image that depicts a dead Jesus. And, science, as well as forensics and the Gospels help us come to the conclusion that the Shroud of Christ in Turin gives us evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus was resurrected and that the God of Christianity is real.

    Best regards,

    Teddi

  12. Hi Teddi,

    My post was in reply to a specific set of claims “refuting” the medieval hypothesis, all of which were “untrue, or a distortion of the truth, or at best a misinterpretation or misrepresentation.” They are carefully enumerated with bullet points and underlinings. As any reader of my blog knows very well, I set extreme value on accuracy, and will happily eat humble pie if you point out any of them that you think are in fact true, undistorted, properly interpreted or properly represented, according to my description.

    Best wishes,
    Hugh

  13. Hi, Hugh,

    I quickly read your post early yesterday morning, and I quickly replied to it late yesterday evening. I was going from memory, but the heading is “absence of evidence,” and you do claim that this is “another nail in the coffin” for authenticists, and you go out of your way to make it seem like Dale is just making stuff up. You and I know Dale quite well, and this is really a very unfair and untrue characterization of him that you are making –and, publicly, to boot!

    Somebody who would be making a bunch of stuff up would not keep such close ties with you –and give you so much publicity through having you on debates that he hosts. Dale prides himself on being a “Real Seeker” and, as such, he takes a look at evidence from various perspectives, and we have known him to change his position based on new evidence and arguments that he becomes aware of.

    You criticize him for some of his claims, yet, you make certain claims denying his without showing us your evidence for why his are not valid. So, that’s not really a level playing field.

    I have not seen this show of Dale’s (due to my being pressed for time), but I have heard many of Dale’s shows and debates, and I know that he routinely makes a good-faith effort to present evidence which he thinks is True.

    Best regards,

    Teddi

  14. Hi Teddi!

    Great to hear from you. Your legal talent for misdirection is a joy to be savoured. I’m not totally clear that you have actually read any of my post – it is very long, detailed and technical – but your opening phrase detracts wonderfully from it. “Absence of evidence” – regarding the Shroud’s authenticity???” Not at all. I specifically mentioned that the debate is very much open. My post was in reply to a specific set of claims “refuting” the medieval hypothesis, all of which were “untrue, or a distortion of the truth, or at best a misinterpretation or misrepresentation.” They are carefully enumerated with bullet points and underlinings. As any reader of my blog knows very well, I set extreme value on accuracy, and will happily eat humble pie if you point out any of them that you think are in fact true, undistorted, properly interpreted or properly represented, according to my description.

    Best wishes,
    Hugh

  15. Hi, Hugh,

    “Absence of evidence” –regarding the Shroud’s authenticity??? You’ve seriously gotta be kidding! There’s a mountain of evidence pointing to the Shroud’s being the authentic burial cloth of Christ. STURP’s work, alone, provides more than enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the Shroud’s authenticity. But, there has been a lot of additional evidence over the years which corroborates, as well as enhances, STURP’s work. Another nail in the authenticity’s coffin? Well, there would first need to be a coffin that authenticists are in before nails can be placed in them.

    Regarding the radiocarbon dating results, I don’t find the need to go into the weeds with this. What’s good enough for me and what should be good enough for others is the fact that Beta Analytics –the largest radiocarbon dating company in the world (in Florida) has on their very own website –people can go and look it up– under radiocarbon dating textiles –they specify that radiocarbon dating textiles is different from radiocarbon dating things like bones, etc., because textiles are manufactured –and this changes things. But, again, it’s not necessary to get into the weeds with this when THE COMPANY, ITSELF, makes the ADMISSION through a cautionary statement when they tell people that when dating textiles, radiocarbon dating needs to be part os a MULTI-DISCIPLINARY PROCESS. This would not be said if the radiocarbon dating results, on their own, were reliable enough. Also, the same website warns of not smoking (like cigarettes) around samples to be dated –out of a concern that this could contaminate the samples. Well, why should the company bother with such a warning if their cleaning procedures are good enough??? Hmmmmm . . . Also, the same website specifies how water damage can, also, throw off C-14 dating. The area of the Shroud that was sampled was in a water-stained area as well as an area that was heavily handled due to being precisely where people would have been holding the Shroud to fold, unfold and display it (when on ostension.) We, also, know that there have been radiocarbon dating results that have given FUTURE results –which, obviously, points to its. not being a perfect process. Also, radiocarbon dating is based on a big PRESUPPOSITION –that carbon decays evenly through the ages –which, this has been shown to not really be the case. Does this mean that C-14 dating is useless? Of course not! I’m not saying that. But, what it does mean is what archeologists have a lot of experience with –sometimes, there is a lot of evidence that the age of something is different from what the C-14 results indicate. As such, that’s a strong indication that the there’s something wrong with the C-14 dating results. This has happened many times –this is not even debatable. And, again, when Beta-Analytics, themselves, publicly warn on their own website that caution should be taken when assessing the reliability of the C-14 results of textiles, then this tells us that –particularly with the Shroud– the radiocarbon dating results are quite questionable and, therefore, unreliable. Maybe they are right and maybe they are wrong. Given that this is the situation, the C-14 results are neutralized and should not, in and of themselves, be indicative of anything. So, it’s better to move on to something more reliable.

    Regarding McCrone, ohhhhhhhh, there is just far too much to say here. I just don’t have the time right now to get into all of the details –but I have commented on many things about McCrone on Dan Porter’s website, and I think on this website, also. As you know, I’ve got McCrone and his work in my cross-hairs with the book that I have been writing. You will be happy to know (well, no, not really . . . ) that I have been finding some new ways to discredit McCrone’s claims about what the “blood and body images” on the Shroud are made from. And, I do so with the work of experts in the field who have absolutely no connection to Shroud scholarship. And, in doing so, I independently corroborate a number of important conclusions that the STURP team made about the Shroud.

    Also, lots of explanations will be given about McCrone’s various claims, and why they are wrong. So, I will leave these lengthy details for my book.

    Best regards,

    Teddi

  16. While Farey seems to feel there is not enough evidence to assert that the Shroud is authentic, he seems to have no problem implying or asserting, without the corresponding proof for his position, that the Shroud is a forgery. In his post from Aug 5 (New Blood Studies) he wrote (footnote 2)

    “2 A maxim coined by Pope Boniface VIII, at almost the same time as the Shroud was made.”

    Note that there is no qualifier. He states, as fact, that the Shroud is a medieval forgery.

    In this current posting, he wrote:

    “Another nail in the authenticist coffin. ”

    Again, note there is no qualifier. The statement implies, if not asserts, that the case for authenticity is dead.

    What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.